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CJM

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Since: Nov 28, 2007
Posts: 43



(Msg. 1) Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 10:35 am
Post subject: Upcoming Flight Sims?
Archived from groups: comp>sys>ibm>pc>games>flight-sim (more info?)

Is it me, or does this genre seem a little neglected these days?

Apart from FSX, there don't seem to be any modern flight-sims, specifically
combat flight-sims - I'm not an expert on the genre but I thought I would
have heard about anything new on the market. I think the most recent games
I've come across are the Falcon series and Lock-On.

When I started gaming in the early eighties, there were loads of flight-sims
around. Pretty crude by todays standards, but often good fun. I used to love
the career-based combat flight-sims like Gunship and F19 Stealth Fighter.
OK, a bit light on the simulation in some respects, but very absorbing.

Is there any future in this genre? Are there any new (good) flight sims in
the pipeline? Aren't we overdue an A-list title that uses our modern
hardware a bit better? Or is this well and truly a niche market these days.
Have we been shot down by the Wii generation?

CJM

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user

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Since: Jan 11, 2008
Posts: 12



(Msg. 2) Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 7:50 pm
Post subject: Re: Upcoming Flight Sims? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"CJM" wrote in message

> Is it me, or does this genre seem a little neglected these days?
>
> Apart from FSX, there don't seem to be any modern flight-sims,
> specifically combat flight-sims - I'm not an expert on the genre but I
> thought I would have heard about anything new on the market. I think the
> most recent games I've come across are the Falcon series and Lock-On.
>
> When I started gaming in the early eighties, there were loads of
> flight-sims around. Pretty crude by todays standards, but often good fun.
> I used to love the career-based combat flight-sims like Gunship and F19
> Stealth Fighter. OK, a bit light on the simulation in some respects, but
> very absorbing.
>
> Is there any future in this genre? Are there any new (good) flight sims in
> the pipeline? Aren't we overdue an A-list title that uses our modern
> hardware a bit better? Or is this well and truly a niche market these
> days. Have we been shot down by the Wii generation?
>
> CJM

It's been that way for a few years now but there are some in development
still.

Black Shark - helicopter sim by Eagle Dynamics
Knights of the Sky - WWI sim
Jet Thunder - Falklands War
Storm of War: Battle of Britain - BoB sim from IL-2 developer
TK is working on another sim based on the same engine as all his other
sims - *yawn*
Xplane just had a new version come out

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Mark Gonzales

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Since: Apr 16, 2005
Posts: 18



(Msg. 3) Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 12:53 am
Post subject: Re: Upcoming Flight Sims? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

"CJM" wrote in message


> When I started gaming in the early eighties, there were loads of
> flight-sims around. Pretty crude by todays standards, but often good fun.
> I used to love the career-based combat flight-sims like Gunship and F19
> Stealth Fighter. OK, a bit light on the simulation in some respects, but
> very absorbing.

Since you mentioned F19 Stealth Fighter, the follow-up F-117 was my all-time
favorite flight sim...the stealthy deep penetration strikes! The closest
I've found in a recent sim is DID's (F-22) Total Air War, probably "light on
the simulation" to some and with mid-'90s graphics, but overall a very fun
feature-packed game, IMO. And it's being worked on by a small but active
community at SimHQ.
--


Mark
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Andrew MacPherson

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Since: Nov 12, 2004
Posts: 172



(Msg. 4) Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 2:30 pm
Post subject: Re: Upcoming Flight Sims? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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cjmnews.RemoveThis@removeme-yahoo.co.uk (CJM) wrote:

> Is it me, or does this genre seem a little neglected these days?

It's not restin', it's dead!

> F19 Stealth Fighter

The damned game which first whetted my appetite for PC flight sims. It
has a lot to answer for. Smile

Andrew "Norwegian Blue" McP
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Mr. Sylvestre

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Since: Oct 19, 2007
Posts: 2



(Msg. 5) Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 5:02 pm
Post subject: Re: Upcoming Flight Sims? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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When DID's Total Air War gets mentioned as "a recent sim", we know we
are in trouble Wink

Regards,
Mr. Sylvestre

Mark Gonzales wrote:
> "CJM" wrote in message
>
>
>> When I started gaming in the early eighties, there were loads of
>> flight-sims around. Pretty crude by todays standards, but often good fun.
>> I used to love the career-based combat flight-sims like Gunship and F19
>> Stealth Fighter. OK, a bit light on the simulation in some respects, but
>> very absorbing.
>
> Since you mentioned F19 Stealth Fighter, the follow-up F-117 was my all-time
> favorite flight sim...the stealthy deep penetration strikes! The closest
> I've found in a recent sim is DID's (F-22) Total Air War, probably "light on
> the simulation" to some and with mid-'90s graphics, but overall a very fun
> feature-packed game, IMO. And it's being worked on by a small but active
> community at SimHQ.
> --
>
>
> Mark
>
>
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Herhor

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Since: Dec 16, 2007
Posts: 3



(Msg. 6) Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 11:05 pm
Post subject: Re: Upcoming Flight Sims? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Andrew MacPherson pisze:
> cjmnews RemoveThis @removeme-yahoo.co.uk (CJM) wrote:
>
>> Is it me, or does this genre seem a little neglected these days?
>
> It's not restin', it's dead!
>

Why?
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Mark

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Since: Oct 14, 2007
Posts: 5



(Msg. 7) Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 4:52 am
Post subject: Re: Upcoming Flight Sims? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Sat, 12 Jan 2008 22:26:25 +0100, Herhor
wrote:

>Andrew MacPherson pisze:
>> cjmnews.TakeThisOut@removeme-yahoo.co.uk (CJM) wrote:
>>
>>> Is it me, or does this genre seem a little neglected these days?
>>
>> It's not restin', it's dead!
>>
>
>Why?

Because the necessary attention span of over 30s to learn how to play
is hard to find these days..
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user

External


Since: Jan 11, 2008
Posts: 12



(Msg. 8) Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 10:54 am
Post subject: Re: Upcoming Flight Sims? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"Mr. Sylvestre" wrote in message

> When DID's Total Air War gets mentioned as "a recent sim", we know we are
> in trouble Wink
>
> Regards,
> Mr. Sylvestre

He's a late bloomer.
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Mark Gonzales

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Since: Apr 16, 2005
Posts: 18



(Msg. 9) Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 10:54 am
Post subject: Re: Upcoming Flight Sims? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"*^&%$$#*%!" wrote in message

>
> "Mr. Sylvestre" wrote in message
>
>> When DID's Total Air War gets mentioned as "a recent sim", we know we are
>> in trouble Wink
>>
>> Regards,
>> Mr. Sylvestre
>
> He's a late bloomer.

Nah, I should have said "most recent".
---


Mark
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Andrew MacPherson

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Since: Nov 12, 2004
Posts: 172



(Msg. 10) Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 12:13 pm
Post subject: Re: Upcoming Flight Sims? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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nospamplease.DeleteThis@ask.com (Mark) wrote:

> Because the necessary attention span of over 30s to learn how to
> play is hard to find these days..

Actually I'm not sure my attention span is what it used to be! If it was
I might be more motivated by the (IMO) insane system modelling coming up
in Black Shark... if they ever finish it.

I console myself with the knowledge that I'm reading a lot more than
simming these days, so while I may miss the future I thought this genre
would have, I'm glad to have rediscovered one of life's real pleasures.

Andrew McP
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BobW

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Since: Dec 30, 2005
Posts: 10



(Msg. 11) Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 2:54 pm
Post subject: Re: Upcoming Flight Sims? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"Mark" wrote in message

> On Sat, 12 Jan 2008 22:26:25 +0100, Herhor
> wrote:
>
>>Andrew MacPherson pisze:
>>> cjmnews DeleteThis @removeme-yahoo.co.uk (CJM) wrote:
>>>
>>>> Is it me, or does this genre seem a little neglected these days?
>>>
>>> It's not restin', it's dead!
>>>
>>
>>Why?
>
> Because the necessary attention span of over 30s to learn how to play
> is hard to find these days..
>
That's why I stick to prop sims; none of those complicated radar and weapon
systems to learn. Just point and shoot!

Bob W.
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tomcervo

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Since: Dec 02, 2007
Posts: 13



(Msg. 12) Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 10:50 pm
Post subject: Re: Upcoming Flight Sims? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Jan 11, 5:05�am, "CJM" wrote:
> When I started gaming in the early eighties, there were loads of flight-sims
> around. Pretty crude by todays standards, but often good fun. I used to love
> the career-based combat flight-sims like Gunship and F19 Stealth Fighter.
> OK, a bit light on the simulation in some respects, but very absorbing.
>
> Is there any future in this genre? Are there any new (good) flight sims in
> the pipeline? Aren't we overdue an A-list title that uses our modern
> hardware a bit better? Or is this well and truly a niche market these days..
> Have we been shot down by the Wii generation?

Look at what you played in the 90's--immersive, good looking things
like Fleet Defender that were game as much as sim. The disappearance
of the game-sim in favor of the "20 minute engine start up procedure"
sim is what pretty much killed flight sims.
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Briarroot

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Since: Oct 19, 2007
Posts: 58



(Msg. 13) Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 9:41 am
Post subject: Re: Upcoming Flight Sims? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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tomcervo wrote:
>
> Look at what you played in the 90's--immersive, good looking things
> like Fleet Defender that were game as much as sim. The disappearance
> of the game-sim in favor of the "20 minute engine start up procedure"
> sim is what pretty much killed flight sims.

This is repeated so often that it seems to have become etched in
stone, yet nearly every one of those sims with "20 minute engine start
up procedure[s]" had an Easy Mode which eliminated realism in favor of
simple fun.

IMO, the *real* reason that flight sims have nearly disappeared from
the marketplace is because they never sold in the kind numbers that
are now required to generate profits. The huge costs associated with
the development of modern PC games generally prevent niche games like
flight sims from ever turning a profit. Game developers really have
to *love* flight sims to even contemplate creating a new one and
that's not because the sims are too hard, it's because their appeal
has always been limited to a rather small pool of potential customers.

There is also the Longevity Factor to consider. Yes, I'm still
playing most of the flight sims I enjoyed in the 1990s. I don't need
a new one every year. Unlike instantly disposable FPS and RTS games,
flight sims have a looong life!


--
"It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or
the baker that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to
their own interest." - Adam Smith
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tomcervo

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Since: Dec 02, 2007
Posts: 13



(Msg. 14) Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 10:10 pm
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On Jan 14, 4:41�am, Briarroot wrote:
> This is repeated so often that it seems to have become etched in
> stone, yet nearly every one of those sims with "20 minute engine start
> up procedure[s]" had an Easy Mode which eliminated realism in favor of
> simple fun.

I think the old sims started Easy Mode on default, and left it up to
the simmer to ratchet up the realism. They also had a simple but
attractive dashboard to draw you in. The IL-2 series has a front end
designed by an IRS agent.

>
> There is also the Longevity Factor to consider. �Yes, I'm still
> playing most of the flight sims I enjoyed in the 1990s. �I don't need
> a new one every year. �Unlike instantly disposable FPS and RTS games,
> flight sims have a looong life!

Seen "PC Shooter" lately? That's all it is now, a lot of copy trying
to convince you that this month's model isn't just the same run-shoot-
boss battle as last month's. They're freaking out about Bioshock
because it's as good as System Shock, from 1995!
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Briarroot

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Since: Oct 19, 2007
Posts: 58



(Msg. 15) Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 9:45 am
Post subject: Re: Upcoming Flight Sims? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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tomcervo wrote:
> On Jan 14, 4:41?am, Briarroot wrote:
>> This is repeated so often that it seems to have become etched in
>> stone, yet nearly every one of those sims with "20 minute engine start
>> up procedure[s]" had an Easy Mode which eliminated realism in favor of
>> simple fun.
>
> I think the old sims started Easy Mode on default, and left it up to
> the simmer to ratchet up the realism. They also had a simple but
> attractive dashboard to draw you in. The IL-2 series has a front end
> designed by an IRS agent.
>

Yeah, not to mention a User Interface that seemingly has *no* design
whatsoever!

IL2 was the last sim I purchased. How many years ago was that? Wink


>> There is also the Longevity Factor to consider. Yes, I'm still
>> playing most of the flight sims I enjoyed in the 1990s. I don't need
>> a new one every year. Unlike instantly disposable FPS and RTS games,
>> flight sims have a looong life!
>
> Seen "PC Shooter" lately? That's all it is now, a lot of copy trying
> to convince you that this month's model isn't just the same run-shoot-
> boss battle as last month's. They're freaking out about Bioshock
> because it's as good as System Shock, from 1995!
>

My point is shooters are disposable, flight sims generally stay on our
hard drives for *years* not months.

Flight sims haven't been "killed" by anything within the sims
themselves, they've been killed by the tremendously increased costs of
development for *all* games. They always sold to a tiny market, but
10 or 15 years ago when development costs were so much less than they
are now, that market was enough to generate a profit for a successful
flight sim. There might be just as many flight sim fans today as
there were back then, but we've become buried under an avalanche of
millions of new PC gamers whose interest in the genre will never match
our own, no matter how simple the sims get. As far as the major
developers are concerned, PC flight sim fans are simply too few in
number to bother with now. If the cost of developing a realistic
flight sim and a typical shooter are the same, but the sim has a
potential market saturation point of only 100,000 while the shooter's
is 2,000.000, which product do you think they're going to pursue?


--
"The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of the
blessings. The inherent blessing of socialism is the equal sharing of
misery." - Winston Churchill
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